“Let us understand that to believe in the Lord himself, and to believe a formula, are actually two different motions. By the grace of God, one Christian has his eyes opened to see what kind of person he is; he therefore lays himself down and believes in the Lord, trusting the latter to do within him what he himself cannot do. As its consequence, he obtains release and is fully satisfied before God. Later on, though, another believer comes along. Upon hearing the testimony of the first person, he too asks God to enlighten him that he may know how useless a man he is. He too learns to believe in God and to humbly abandon himself. Yet it strangely turns out that he does not receive the deliverance which the first one experiences. What is the explanation for this? It is because the first brother has living faith which enables him to touch the Lord as well as believe in God, while the second brother has not faith at all but only a “copied faith formula”; and thus he does not reach God. Briefly stated, what this second brother gets is a method, not the Lord. A method has no power nor effectiveness; for not being Christ, it is simply a dead thing.”
Watchman Nee
In light of Bob Mumford's cry that "they just want to see His face", how can we bring Christ to the world in a way that they encounter Him and not a formula?
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My expectation of "conversions" is now akin to Paul's experience on the road to Damascus or Peter's time with Cornelius.
In this post-post era, we do not lead people to Christ, we take Him to them and in a manifestation of His Glory they ask, "What must I do?" Until then, I say we just keep loving the people of the world in relationship and "wait on the Lord".
I agree...we may really mess it up if we try to "hurry" the process.
I think one key is to spend time with people who have not had this experience and allow them to experience the presence of "Christ in us, the hope of glory"
may i add to this? i guess i am I hope i don't offend anyone though.
I think its great to wait on the relationships we have that we are trying to show God through us. However there is a waiting I see that disturbes me.
It is with our brothers and sisters in Him. I got away with all kinds of stuff most of my life, and was happy until about a year ago when I realized how wrong I was. Most of you who know me, know that I went to work with Jamie last year in Costa Rica for three months.
Jamie and his wife Kathy treated me like no one ever has...excuse the expression, but they didn't let me get away with shit! If I was hiding in something they called me out, if I was moving backwards instead of forwards they called me on it....it was rough. It hurt more than many things I've had to endure in my life....but Oh my goodness is it freeing. To know that I cannot do anything unless it is in the light, or I will get called out was so real....
Then I read something in the bible that caught me. I was reading through the story of David as king, and his children, and I realized it. Davids kindship was almost lost, his life was almost lost....why? Simply because he did not discipline his children for their mistakes, because of his guilt for his own. I suddenly had a new appreciation for my parents.
But I also realized that this should be applied for spiritual family not just biological family. If we see out brothers and sisters falling and stumbling, help pick them up....but tell them in love they were wrong for it too. I think we are too leanient (in my humble opinion)...maybe the idea of the ultimate sacrifce and forgiveness has been taken slightly for granted...
have to run....dinner with mom.
In the body of Christ, people who are hiding and not living in the light, but appearing to need to be called out on it and up to the standard we are given. Those with a heart after God's will respond to the rebuke and others may become bitter.
In relationships with those not yet in the body of Christ, it is difficult and probably not right (unless the Spirit leads you otherwise) to call them out. God is the initiator. I agree with you, Joseph, when you say we can mess it up if we "hurry" the process. That is something I fight against daily when I am with friends at school. It is an element of trust between me and Jesus. Do I believe that He can really reveal himself to these people with me trying to be the catalyst? A silly question, but something I fight against, and probably we all do.
Correction, it is supposed to be "withOUT me trying to be...."
I think the key point that Matt was making through Watchman Nee, is that every person must come into direct contact with the living Christ through genuine faith...social pressure is not enough.
In your case Ruth, it had to be Jamie...I would not have been able to do that for you without triggering your reactions or defense mechanisms...probably not Carlos or any of the 'elder' young people either.
Jamie and Cathy seem to have a gift of grace for direct rebukes...the only time recently that I have done it and actually seen good fruit was with a certain young lady from Columbia (as in MD).
Have you given anyone 'permission" to be that direct with you here in Miami?
William, I tend to agree with you. It is different between non-followers and followers. Thats why we all need traveling companions to whom we give permission to speak honestly into our lives.
Will, I completely agree with you, there is a difference we should apply between our relationships with brothers and sisters in Him, and those that are seeking.
Just the OP talks about the "brother" that has a "copied faith formula"....imho is a situation that falls under needing to speak to that brother in truth.
and Joseph, I don't think I have let anyone be that direct with me besides Judy. Part of that though stems from like u said triggers and defense mechanisms which is something I need to work on in myself where you and mom are concerned. Also, I don't feel that anyone else tried to initiate me that way when I returned. I tried to plug into something....anything, but only you and mom were there (that is not a bad thing by the way). It was because of this that I ended up hanging out with Mike, Clay, Shallyn...etc. which has turned out to be a more than I thought it was at first.
Honestly I'm still searching for someone(s) to plug into in that way, but seem to not be able to find it. maybe that's my hangup and I need to deal with it withing myself....I'm not sure.
Ruth, sometimes, I think, God allows us to be aware of our need and perhaps we even feel a bit "deprived". It's all his way of getting us ready, because he is preparing the provision for our need, and he wants us to be able to receive it joyfully and thankfully when it opens up. If we're really "hungry" it will also help us more readily recognize the provision when it opens up.
Perhaps he's creating the provision for your need around you, but it's just not quite time yet.
Hey guys, I think that there are MANY people in the "Church" that are just copying a method, but haven't truly experienced a personal relationship with Jesus. There are also many people in the "World" who's hearts follow Jesus and they probably don't even realize it.
About Ruth's comment regarding not letting calling up brothers and sisters in Christ who are living in sin.... It's a difficult thing. Mainly b/c the person can only truly be called up if he/she is open to God changing his/her heart and life.
You can "call up" a fellow believer as many times as you want to. But unless that person's heart is truly surrendered to God, it won't make a difference.
this sounds like what Bob Mumford was talking about last Oct. in his message about giving someone permission to "cut our hamburger." People can't really call us up or speak the truth to us, unless we are willing to give them permission.
so... are we done with this thread? Time to get Matt, Dr. Sam or Eagle-Man to post a new topic?
So....here's my question. If a brother or a sister in the Father will not allow themselves to be called up when in sin, or walking in darkness, when is the cut off point?
To truely follow the Father one must be willing to walk in the light, and open him/herself to correction. If he/she is not walking in the light and not willing to take correction, are they in a sense no longer seeking/following the Father?
And if he/she is not seeking/following the Father...what then? Does one continue to give of his/herself to that person, continue to try and lead that person...?
If that brother/sister is living a "copied faith", is it not our responsibility to bring it to their attention? Or do we allow them to continue their facade?
I have benefitted greatly from both peer and mentor relationships. I've learned to listen to both, though it was difficult. It is vital for our personal growth. I saw it when I read Nee's "Spiritual Authority". He makes a very clear statement. Those who submit to God's authority are of His Kingdom. Those that do not submit are of the Kingdom of Satan. Satan is in rebellion to authority and Kingdom subjects are in submission to it. All authority, including that delegated authority that men have, is God's authority. I have noticed that certain people have natural authority over me. Gary Henley is one. I see it, and I get under it. If you trust Jesus to steward your life, you have no problem submitting.
By the way, those that God puts "over" you don't always "deserve" it from your point of view. Often times He will place you under those you don't love or respect so that you can learn to submit "as unto the Lord". Think of David and Saul. "Deserve" has nothing to do with it. Have a bad boss? Submit and honor. Have a mean teacher? Submit and honor. God is your defender.
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