Hi William,
I like the word, "seekers" ... although some may not yet be actively seeking ... "pre-believer" or pre-follower works ...
I also like "friends" on a journey, or traveling companions. We are all on a journey, regardless of our level of faith. I view the secular people I am spending time with as simply "friends." Some are more connected to Jesus than others ... but I find self-identification as a "Christian" to be a very poor guide to the level of their faith and commitment. In other words, some who call themselves Christians (many actually) often have less faith and less true commitment to the name (character) of Christ, than many who do not call themselves Christians. God looks on the heart .... sounds like Matt 7, doesn't it? "Lord, Lord..."
I have actually stopped thinking about people in terms of "Christian" and "non- or pre-Christian" ... and I think of them as on a continuum (from -10 to +10 - Engle’s Scale) of faith and openness to God.
I recently attended a Quaker worship service (which I really liked). They call themselves the “Society of Friends” and they call anyone who visits them (even agnostics or atheists) “friends”.
One of the important (and problematic) functions of religion is to provide a sense of group identity (us versus them). A particular religion or social group will define itself against the “others” who are not part of them…hence, so much religious violence, for example in the Balkans between Catholics, Muslims and Orthodox, or the war on terror between “Christians”, Jews and Muslims … or the civil war in Iraq between Kurds, Sunni’s and Shia’s.
That’s why I believe that Jesus never intended to establish a “religion” … he came seeking a relationship, and he came to abolish the “dividing wall” between gentile and Jew, slave and free, male and female. He was severely critical of the Jews for trying to “own” God and control access to His kingdom and for viewing themselves as superior and “chosen” in distinction with the gentile “dogs.” Christians” do the same thing today. The last thing Jesus wanted was to set up another religion so that people could call themselves “Christian” and look down upon “sinners.” The highest title that Jesus gave anyone was found in John 15:15 when he called his disciples “friends.”
joseph
PS: there is a medical update from Deb on http://www.friends4thejourney.com/ and I'll be posting my most recent email reflection on "Made to Belong" from the PDL on there later today.
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37 comments:
I don't think God draws lines like we tend to. Like you said, He looks on the heart...
I believe that God doesn't see people as "in" or "out", but as those who are moving toward Him or away from Him.
If someone is genuinely seeking to find Him and know Him, He knows that, and I believe He has mercy on that person.
He also knows who is moving away from Him...
That means that someone who does not call him or herself a "Christian" could be much "closer" to God and His redemptive mercy than someone who is a "Christian" with a capital "C" and who follows all the protocol of church attendance and maintains an "appearance" of following Jesus, when their heart is actually far from Him.
yes... I was talking to Carlos tonight...he was basically agreeing but pointing out that there does need to be some kind of line of separation ...otherwise, we would be no different that anyone who is seeking their own desire. we didn't get a chance to finish the conversation.
C.S. Lewis said that there are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done" ...and those to whom God says "have it your way...."
Wow, now that is a good post. I was recently having a conversation with a gay coworker. He was upset b/c a table that he had (He is a waitor) was basically trying to scare him into converting b/c they noticed that he was gay. I told him not to worry about what stupid people say, he said, but aren't you a Christian? I paused for a minute and said, "No, I wouldn't call myself a Christian. There have been so many evil and mean things done by "so called" Christians. I don't want to group myself in with that term. I prefer to call myself a follower. He looked at me like I was crazy and said, well what's the difference, you still follow someone who hate gays? And I said, have you ever asked him if he hates gays? Are you just going to rely on someone's else's opion of how Jesus feels about you? Or are you going to find out directly from him? He got quiet and went back to work. But that conversation changed something in me as well. It made me realize that homosexuality is no better or worse than any other sin. A "Christian" who constantly struggles with a lifestyle of pornography is just as sinful as a gay. We're all in this together and we need to life eachother up toward God, and not tear people down.
good points Sarah ... I have developed several close friendships with wonderful people who are gay recently and I consider them to be good friends. It is tragic that someone would view Jesus as "hating gays" because of the attitudes of Christians.
Interestingly, in terms of evaluating the priorities of spiritual truth, Jesus never mentioned homosexuality even once, although he did condemn lust and casual divorce.
He also gave clear instructions that we are NOT to judge (Gr: krino). It appears to me after almost 30 years in Christian ministry, that krino-type judgment is pervasive within Christian circles ... something Jesus clearly said NOT to do.
Excellent post and comments. Seeker is a good word. Many people don't really know what ( more aptly who) they are seeking, but they have a hunger for truth. We know Truth as a person. Those that are truly seeking will truly find. I believe that the Holy Spirit is wooing them. I have been introduced at a certain time in their life to incarnate a certain aspect of Christ. With God's help they will see His eyes staring at them through mine! Lord help me.
Matt,
I read something you wrote somewhere, sorry I am not more specific...it seems you are all over the web, it said "where are you going? I will walk with you."
that hit me, because I see that as the attitude we need to have with pre-believers/pre-followers/seekers. That is the way Jesus was with the disciples, except they went wherever He went, he didnt go where they went. But I like the spirit of what that phrase says. It seems like what, Joseph, you are doing with the people you hang with.
On the topic of seekers, I dont think the disciples were actively pursuing God when Jesus called them, and yet we can see because of their immediate response that there was that hunger and they were searching. Jesus revealed himself to them, and something about Him drew them into the right direction. I think people we come into contact are looking and when they see light they will be drawn to it. There are people that I am with throughout the week that say things that let me know His light is drawing them and they see it in me, they just dont know exactly what it is.
I strongly "Amen" your prayer, Matt. Let it be so!
good points william ... I have coined a new term, "goodnewsing" based on the Greek word, "euggelion" and I am defining it as, "lending a helping hand to others to help them take the next step on THEIR journey ... without trying to make them follow us on our journey or putting an agenda on them."
Is that term "euggelion" related to Zoolander's " eugugoly"? ;)
Sarah, I really appreciated your story. God really convicted me about my arrogance towards gays recently. There is a guy who works at the Starbucks on our block and he's not one to check out chicks. I am working on building a friendship with him. God has been stirring something in me to press in to Him for them. So that when I have an opportunity (that I'm looking for more and more these days), I'll be ready. They soooo need His love, like me.
And if I could drop in on the "seeker" convo: Recently, a girl in CR was killed. She was one with whom my sister, Anna, was building a deep relationship. There was a Bible study being held in her home, and she was still active in her profession (prostitution). It would be sensible to say that if this girl had lasted too much longer, she would have probably confessed faith in Jesus, as a result of what has been going on in her heart. (Jesus was knocking.)
I want to bet more on God's lovingkindnesses than some kind of impersonal and legalistic judgment.
How crazy am I?
if that is crazy, may God make us all crazy...
I love MBrennan's comment about "wooing" because the NT talks about the Father "drawing" us to Himself. It's His initiative but He has given us the will to respond or not respond. That takes some of the responsibility/pressure off me when I feel like I need to "make" someone come to a belief in Christ. I'm simply the instrument. God is doing the work, not me.
At the same time, He does say to "go" so I don't want to be complacent and just sit back waiting for Him to "woo" and take no responsibility in my part of the great commission.
My frustration is sometimes the years spent building bridges, having good friendships, but not seeing my friends become followers of Jesus. I wonder if I'm just a good friend and not clear or bold enough in sharing my own life experiences with Christ? Many of you that I know seem to so easily and non-religiously share your faith. I feel when given the opportunity, I stumble over my words trying not to sound religious, yet sounding religious. So maybe I do shrink back too much...
That's what I liked about "Blue Like Jazz". This totally non-religious, loving, sharing, way of reaching people where they are at...
good thoughts Soaronwings... Let me ponder them before I say too much. I'll just say this, that often we use the wrong measures for deciding if someone is a follower of Christ. He sees the heart...you may have far more influence on the eternal destiny of these people than you realize! You just may not be able to see it.
Patrick, regarding the young woman who was killed. As Joseph said in the post below yours, God looks at the heart. I'm definitely crazy enough to agree with you. As a sinner (aren't we all!), I would much rather fall into the God who is agapae than into the hands of some pharisaical "Christian".
John M.
I agree with both you and John Patrick. I happened to get on IM chat with Jamie just after he found out about her death. If JEsus was knocking on the door of her heart, my guess is that he was still standing there when the door to eternity opened, ready to take her in his arms.
Soaronwings, I am still thinking about your comments...but have not had time to try to put my thoughts down on paper yet. Don't go away! I will come back this theme.
In a faith study I am in with Will and a few guys in the local body, we came across Heb 11:6. This verse, IMHO, seems to convey God's heart about salvation better than the Roman road.
"Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Those who come to Him must believe that He exists and He rewards those who earnestly seek Him."
Going back to the original topic, I think there is a possibility of someone being a "nonbeliever" and a seeker, at the same time. Someone can be seeking and not yet be a conscious believer. As in, they might believe in God somewhere deep within them, but they can't vocalize what exactly is going on. I know many times I run into this myself. I know God is working somewhere within me, I just don't know where, or what He is doing.
josenmiami- thanks for thinking about my comments. You guys are bringing up some intersting comments and questions but I'll wait before I ask another...
thanks!
I agree Patrick. There are times he calls our name … something in us must respond even when we don’t believe. You have heard of the Salmon climbing/swimming back upstream to spawn and die. When eternity is planted in our hearts, we will find our way back to him … it is something deeper than our conscious beliefs. It is grace.
Soaronwings, I am thinking about the verse that says “the kingdom of God is within you” and the other verse that says “the kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and Joy in the Holy Spirit.”
It also says in the early chapters of Acts, “great grace was upon them, and God was adding to their number daily those that were being saved.”
There are two aspects of this. The primary one, in my opinion, is that in order to be effective with those who do not believe or know him yet, we must first allow the kingdom to work in our own hearts. If we are not experiencing righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit….people will not be drawn to the light of God within us. I believe this is the case with “The Average Christian Life” (not the “normal” Christian life). Most Christians are NOT experiencing the kingdom of God within them, and have just as much anxiety, depression, guilt and anger as the unbelievers around them. No big surprise that people are not being drawn to Christ. So… we must be diligent to work out our own salvation, and to “cast aside every hindrance which keeps us from running the race” (Heb. 12).
Second point, we often fail to “raise the flag.” After a period of time of relationship building, we need to find a natural way to let people know that we have faith, that we love them and are praying for them. Once they know that we are people of faith, and that we care and pray, they have the option of drawing closer to us, or backing off. That’s ok…that’s how we find out if they are desire the light….if they are moths, or cockroaches (sorry, that sound bad…if anyone can think of a kinder analogy, let me know).
Since I have “raised the flag” at FIU, I have all kinds of people coming to me…and a few that are friendly but keep a bit of distance. It took me almost two years to build the relationships and get to the place where I was comfortable raising the flag with naturalness and grace. It should not be rushed.
I hope this helps. fI might also post this over at the google discussion group goodnewsing.
http://groups.google.com/group/goodnewsing
Joseph, I read your post over there and posted a question asking you to elaborate on how you go about "raising the flag". I realize that one has to be sensitive to the Lord's timing and the leading of the Holy Spirit. But I think it would be helpful if you shared some of your own story of how, after two years of relationship building, you actually let your friends know about your faith. Some have trouble making this transition. Also, there are many out there who have faith down deep inside, but who are connected to their friends in the context of certain lifestyle choices and other issues, that hinder them, and intimidate them about sharing their faith. They're kind of stuck, and never end up sharing with their friends.
John M.
"raising the flag" is just simply letting people know that you are a person of faith.
It is normally best not to do that early in a relationship but to wait until there has been a degree of bonding. I usually wait until I sense that I have formed a genuine friendship with someone and that they have "dropped their shields" and have received me into their lives.
Often this is when you hit level 4 in the relationship....the level of transparency and sharing feelings.
I also wait for the initiative of the Spirit. I try not to "force the shot" (baskeball).
If they are sharing a problem or challenge with me, (a boyfriend problem, job problem or health problems most often)... I will say "I'll be praying for you."
Thats enough for them to know that I am a believer or a person of faith. Often, they will come back days or a week later and specifically ask for prayer.
Jose, you mentioned "level 4 in the relationship....the level of transparency and sharing feelings."
What are the other stages?
yes Patrick. It is important to understand that all the levels have value, you cannot skip one to go to a deeper one.
Level 1: SOCIAL RITUAL, greetings. "hi, bye, wazzzup?" hand shake, "hey good to see you, how are you?" (the proper answer at this level is "fine" even your wife has incurable cancer).
Level 2: INFORMATION.
"hey, did you hear that the Red Sox won the game last night" "it looks like it is going to rain", "what are you majoring in in your college?"
Level 3: OPINION.
"Hey, do you think the Dolphins have a chance this year?" "What do you think about Barak Obama?" "What is your opinion about the gay lifestyle?"
Sadly, there is where most people get stuck. We live in the world of opinions and never go deeper.
Level 4: FEELINGS.
"I need to be honest and let you know you really pissed me off last week." or, "it makes me angry that you keep making plans for me and assume that I will do it without checking with me".
Level 5: DIVINE RELATIONAL TRUTH.
"I realize now that I was not really pissed at you so much but I was displacing my own anger and frustration with cancer and my financial situation toward you. I know that you were only concerned" (I had this conversation last night).
or "I know that you guys love me and want me to be with you at this conference, but I just need to know that you will support me even if I am unable to participate" (another conversation this week).
I hope this helps. We can only really influence people at level 4 (this is why aruguing about political or religious opinions is so fruitless).
Once you are at level 4 you are starting to bond with a person and meet them at their deeper emotional needs.
People only touch God at level 5 "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."
J,
This is really helpful. Its good to know what stage in a relationship you are in. As we spend time with a person then it will naturally go to level 3, but we probably have to step out or they do to take it deeper. Alot of times this can be a little awkward, or maybe it has been for me because it wasnt time to go that deep.
Does the transition and depth come naturally, or do we need to be a catalyst in it sometimes?
the transition from #3 to #4 can definitely feel a little risky, and probably requires some intentionality to use Jamie's term.
whew,
so I missed a lot haha....well hello all i missed ya'll! ok here it goes hehe:
As per Sarah...I recently touched on this subject with Mom. There are a couple of homosexual guys that come into my job alot (I work at a bar), two of them are married (not sure if they went to a state where it is legal, or just had a personal cerimony). Mom and I were at Applebee's for lunch and one of them was there. I brought him over to meet mom.
That night he came into my job and went on for hours about how beautiful and sweet mom is....his heart touched hers in that moment. Him and his husband later came up to me and cried with me and encouraged me in my journey of dealing with Mom's cancer. His husband told me that he and his mother were praying for her.
I've always been surrounded by homosexual, or bisexual individuals....since middle school. if there is one thing I have realized over this time its that majority of the time, they are in deep pain. Most of my homosexual friends that I've known have chosen their lifestyle out of pain, and because of their choice they experience more pain via rejection, judgement, etc...
The ache of their hearts is crying out for Love....love that does not judge,does not hurt, is not jealous....
Soaronwings, I was very thoughtful after reading your post. Being the late commer I am atm I got the advantage of being able to read over Jose's response haha. But here it is.
Last Sept-Dec I was in CR going through a huge life change. Upon returning I had a very different outlook on faith. When I returned I almost immediately connected in with an old co-worker, and through him i connected into his network of friends.
In the past I probably would have been very forward with my faith, and most likely kinda aggressive with it. For some reason I felt prompted not to follow the comfortable path. As Jose stated, I think the biggest change for me was the fact that I had received massive amounts of healing, and was seeking to push further and deeper into Father myself. But the second thing that made a difference was my choice to hold my beliefs to myself (not hiding them per say) until I felt I could begin to open my heart.
It actually came sooner than i wanted it to. I had been able to share a lot with my old co-worker, and he knew where my faith stood and had begun a journey towards the Father himself. I had let him borrow my car one day to pick up two of our other friends, and one of them saw my cross hanging from my rear-view mirror. She asked "Why does Ruth have a cross?". And he told her I was a Christian.
A few months later she was having fun shooting down a friend's belief's in God, when I chimed in and agreed with her on a few points (our Christian friend is a bit more bible savvy than he is heart to heart with the Father). Later she told me that my father and I were the first Christians she had ever found respect for. Ironically her and my father had a very deep conversation about faith, forgiveness, and Jesus a few nights ago! It was probably the most vulnerable I've ever seen her.
Jose wrote on a different blog, that every day he intentionally shows up to FIU and is there, but also waits on the Father to open doors.
We must...and I stress must be moving towards wholeness ourselves, for people to see the light in us. No we can't be perfect...but if we are not seeking wholness ourselves, how can we expect another too, let alone help that person towards it? Its like the blind leading the blind....someone gets killed by the car haha (just kidding).
But there must be patient action. "What does that mean?" You ask... Look at the story or Mary and Martha. Martha ran herself thin doing. Mary sat at Jesus' feet. But she didn't do nothing. Mary intentionally went to the house, and with that same intent sat at the feet of Jesus, then she waited for the opportunities to see life, love, and salvation in Jesus. We must "go" with intent, but also be quiet withing watching and waiting for Father to direct us in the more subtle aspects.
More thoughts....but this has gotten long enough for now...I'll write more later =) I need sleep! haha.
Wow Ru! I am honored to have such an amazing, insightful, and beautiful sister!!! The thing that Bob Mumford stressed at ACM is that if we are men and women of the kingdom we must follow the most important commandment, “Love God with everything inside us, (Which implies that we are constantly moving toward greater wholeness and closeness with him) and love those around us as we love ourselves. He said that this love is AGAPE which means that give everyone unqualified love and unlimited forgiveness. If this is the case, there is no room for turning people away because we dislike or disagree with their lifestyle. We must continue to love them. And through that love, we must believe that God will lead them toward himself and reveal the things in their lives that need to be changed when the time is right. If that person is not pressing toward God, then he/she will simply continue in his/her sinful lifestyle. (Is that so different from many so called “Christians”?
Second, I just realized something. A bunch of us were discussing women’s’ roles in the kingdom last night. Carlos brought up a point that God uses men and women without bias. He was talking about Lydia – a woman who came to faith and started a church in her home which became the church of the Philippians. It occurs to me that you are a Lydia. You may not believe it, but you are the elder of the Church at Stick & Steins. Jose is the apostle. You have started something, simply be allowing God to lead you in Agape love. THAT IS FREAKING AMAZING!!!
Formal establishments restrain people from what I've seen. When people shed off their politics, ego, and skepticism there is a more welcoming sense of truth and honesty. Basically, that's what friendship's focal point should be :)
hi Ruth, Sarah, Patrick, William, Soaronwings, JohnM and Relentless. Good conversation.... I think we are on to some good stuff here.
Relentless, I like the concise way you expressed yourself. I agree with you that organizations, institutions and 'formal establishments restrain people, and try to squeeze the people into boxes ... the person becomes secondary to the institution. it seems to me that for Jesus, the highest category was that of 'friend' ... higher even than 'disciple.'
Good stuff! I just finished having a cigar and a good conversation with our mutual friend, the soul doctor...Dr. L.
blessings
Wow! Thanks everybody. I read J's comment back to me at the end of last week and I've been letting the words "the Kingdom of God is within you" bounce around in my mind and heart for several days. It carries with it a sense of responsibility yet this feeling of gratitude at being a recipient of such great grace and such an awesome gift.
I agree with all of you. We are on a journey to wholeness and attempting to love God with all our heart, strength, mind, and soul. This geniune love and passion for our Lord (not religiousness)will be what speaks to the hearts of people that are searching for true love. I've learned that we all have a God shaped void in our lives that we try to fill with "things" that cannot bring fulfillment because the only fulfilling thing is Jesus. It's His perfect love we seek. That eternity in our hearts...
Thanks J for the explanation of "raising the flag". That was my next question. And then after that, the explanation of the phases in a relationship. Good stuff! Very helpful in a practical way.
I don't know about you guys, but here in the Bible belt, its so frustrating because to call yourself a Christian has very little meaning, if any. It can actually have more of a negative connotation.
It think B Mumford said he tells people now that he's a follower of Jesus. How do you guys refer to yourselves?
Another question, I find a lot of people talk about God and believe in God. But the Bible clearly says the only way to the Father is through the Son. How do we move from "God" talk to "Jesus" talk with people? Or maybe I'm complicating it. If someone is truly seeking, will the relationship and the Kingdom within us, eventually and naturally lead us to that conversation?
Don't even get me started on the institution...
Thanks everybody for your insight on the above questions...
Soar, great questions. I think there is many ways to get to Jesus, depending on how the Father is drawing people. I look for opportunities in people's lives that they are having trouble explaining. As soon as you get to Jesus, the get to the Father and His love.
I know this is a vague answer. But it does require patience and listening to the HS.
Regarding "Raising the Flag", Jamie Johnson just put up a great post giving his answer to the "how" question. I found it very instructive and helpful. OK I just went over there to get the link, and I couldn't find it. (Joseph, I find that site very confusing...) So, if you all will indulge me (and Jamie), I'm going to post his email below: (It's long, but well worth the read.)
First, thank you Jack for your openness and humility. I can't think
of anyone I know who flows well in evangelism that doesn't sense very
deeply that they are "bad" at it. They realize that it all depends on
the Father...that He is good at it. We just get to walk into the
terrifyingly wonderful adventure of going with Him to see what He will
do each day. Out of the brokenness of our limitations, our heartfelt
prayers and groans, we begin to see little movements that require
great faith even to notice.
Second, I wanted to touch on my own experience with raising the flag.
I think that much of the evangelism of the previous century has been
more public and that raising the flag has been about making a
declarative statement at one point. In this post-modern melt that we
now live, everything is more subtle and, if it is going to bear any
fruit, relational. As a result, raising the flag can also be seen
within relational dynamics...if we can open the eyes of our heart to
really see it.
The problem is that I am realizing that the traditional church
structure has retarded our relational development in comparison to the
"world" when it comes to developing new relationships. Please do not
take this wrong. So many of those who have been in Covenant streams
have been afforded the great luxury of being understood and valued
within the context of a fixed group of people for the last 20+
years.
You have to contrast that to people in the "world" who live in
desperation with no one around them they can count on. Their
relationships (for those who haven't started to live as hermits,
hiding out in their workplaces and their homes with only television,
the internet and dvd's to keep them company) are all with people who
don't have faith for them and will only give them the time of day if
they seem to have something of worth. The result of this is that they
have had to become more and more skilled at instant relationship
building techniques like making a good first impression, being
relevant to the person in front of them, reading the person they are
talking to, asking open-ended questions to create flow within
conversations and leaving the conversation with built-in follow up.
Many Christians are used to talking to people who know them, have
grace for them and will put up with uncomfortability. As a result, we
head out there to know people and we can't stay "on the bronco" by
being sensitive within the conversation.
I think it would be interesting to walk through the relational
dynamics that are occuring within each milisecond of a conversation
that Jesus moves in that allows us to 1.) respond to His voice and
leading and 2.) see the openings, closed doors and reactions of the
person we are talking to in order to walking into the moments of
raising the flag.
When we do this, we see that "the flag" isn't really to scream,
"JESUS," or to talk about our church. The "flag" is or really are the
characteristics of the Glory of God...Agape love. To raise the flag
we walk into a conversation or, more accurately, a series of
conversations with the sensitivity to His heart and their heart that
allows us to get to that point where the Holy Spirit is touching their
soul, attempting to regenerate their dead spirit and where we are able
to incarnate His Spirit's movements in a way that touches their heart
and allows it to "taste" the Kingdom that they go to sleep at night
crying out for.
The crazy thing is how irrational this often is. Sometimes I have to
be hard and intense. Sometimes I have to not blink when they say
something that should devastate me. Sometimes I have to let them use
me. Sometimes I have to call them on using me. Sometime have to
ignore that they have used me. Sometimes I have to say nothing.
Sometimes I have to tell them my story...or part of it. Sometimes I
have to talk about football. That all really comes down to being
about learning to follow the Holy Spirit into being connected to His
heart and then walking into their heart.
I also, above all, have to break my need for anything at all to
happen. My goal is to love and connect, serve and care. I have to
trust the rest to Him. They can smell when I need a response. They
immediately know that something is wrong. They walk away.
Sorry for the length. We could actually go much deeper. Let me know
if that would help on a one-to-one basis and we could do some actual
"reading" of actual situations you are in/have been in/might be in.
Love and peace,
Jamie
What a thread!! I left town for a few days and couldn't check in.
anyone want to give me a full recap of ACM? Maybe I should just try to get the DVD's.
Joseph? Any idea how I can get a hold of them?
Hang tough everybody. My love to Anna and Jamie. I'm so sorry to hear about this girl. I know they have labored to be able to walk alongside these ladies. May God create deeper connections and community with the other girls as their sister steps into the arms of Ultimate Reality...
That is a really good post by Jamie. If you haven't read it yet because of its length, DO IT NOW!!
yes, it is good. He posted it in a google discussion group we have started called "goodnewsing" which is devoted to helping one another learn more about the dynamics of demonstrating and communicating the agape love of God to people who need it.
http://groups.google.com/group/goodnewsing
I agree with him about the need to learn "relational" dynamics. For me, that has been part of my experience of getting dropped down in the middle of a university setting where no one knew me and could give a flip about reading my newsletters... I had to start from scratch.
We need to become students of relational dynamics and communication and learn how to go to levels 4 or 5 with anyone, anywhere.
If any of you young folks are called to an 'apostolos' type lifestyle... at some appropriate moment it would be good to get away from "church" (here someone might disagree with me) and just swim in the secular ocean for a while... (not a bad idea to do a "buddy" system at least).
Soaronwings, I think that is anywhere these days. Unfortunately the term "Christian" has been tainted over the years by people who talk the talk yet don't walk the walk.
I personally try not to label myself. Usually when asked about my religious prefrences I tell people "I believe in having a personal relationship with God." Most people agree with me, and say they believe the same thing.
To people who I have a closer relationship with I will usually tell them that I believe the basic Christian beliefs, but that I don't believe in "religion" per say. That in itself usually leads to a deeper conversation about religion, and why I don't label myself.
I think that as far as changing the conversation from God to Jesus...is dependent on individual cases. As a few people have mentioned I think that we need to tune ourselves in to the Father and be sensitive to where the person we are relating to is at, and what they are ready and/or willing to take in.
Jamie and his wife Kathy taught my a lot during my time in CR, one of the things I learned during that time was how to read people and situations through Him, and when I should say something I feel and when to keep my mouth shut hehe.
For example...my boyfriend Mike. A year ago he wouldn't even use the term "God", he would say "fate" or "spirits", he has quickly rigorously pursued the Father with a hunger that surprised even me (I've known him for about 4 years). I was able to talk to him openly about Jesus (even though he still has trouble accepting that Jesus is the 'Lord and Savior').
A friend of mine that I met through him is agnostic as he was, however she is more closed. She feels that Jesus is a 'teacher' that God put on this earth to give us guidance, like Buddha or Ghandi...but she does not believe him to be our 'savior'. I've never gotten into a deep conversation about Jesus, or salvation with her.
However, Jose was down at the bar a week or two ago and she was sharing a fictional book idea pertaining to the Anti-Christ. I had been sitting talking to Jose, but when I saw that she was beginning to get really into the convo I silently took my leave. When I walked up an hour later her spirit was open and vulnerable (something I've never seen in her). I found out later that they had been talking about baptism, Jesus, and salvation of her own volition.
The seed had been planted by my interactions with her, and my being vulnerable with her, and her watching Mike's life changing over the last year. And that seed began to sprout inside of her talking with Jose...I realized before that I would probably not be the one to talk to her about these things, but I never quit sewing, and listening.
Sarah, thank you for the compliment =) it means a lot to me. I don't aim to start a church there, or to be an elder. I just see so many people hurting and searching for something more out of life, that I can't hold back. I have to give whatever is in me from Father to give...I was there once, and could still be there if it wasn't for the love of people around me, the least I can do is return the favor.
Speaking of which, two of the girls that are regulars at Stick's just got jobs there, I started training last night, and will be training them till Monday. I'm hoping that this will be an opportunity to begin getting to know them both on a deeper level =)
bleh again,sorry for the long post lol.
I just wanted to add something. I recently watched the movie Evan Almighty (btw awesome movie! Better than Bruce Almighty IMHO, u should go see it for sure).
There is a part in the movie where God (Morgan Freeman) is talking to Noah's (Evan) wife, although she doesn't know its God. He tells her:
"Do you think, if a person prays for patience God will give them patience? Or do you think God will give them the opportunity to be patient?
And if a person prays for courage, that God will give them courage? Or will God give them the opportunity to be courageous?
And do you think, that if a person prays for their family to become closer, God will give them warm fuzzy feelings? Or will God will give the opportunity to love each other, depend on each other?"
Funny, my parents always said when I was growing up that patience was one of the worst things to pray for....because Father would put u in situations that required patience.
Maybe, if you ask Him for wisdom and intuitiveness in sharing Him in your relationships, he will give you the opportunity! =)
Ruth hillary - Thanks so much for your insight.
I hear what you are saying and I'm seeing more and more as many of you have said - it's walking in the Spirit not a formula. It's making true friendships, being truly concerned and caring for the people around us. (No agenda.) It's about authenticity and vulnerability. (Being vulnerable is hard for me...) It's being dependent on Father as you said Ruth Hillary. Thanks...
Np Soaronwings =) that's why we are here isn't it? hehe
I think a big key to what you said is "no agenda" that is one alot of people around me have struggled with for a long time. We had to teach a few of them what it meant to just "chill" =)
Also, I know it is hard to be vulnerable, maybe there is some should searching as to why that needs to be done...but I think you will find that when u are vulnerable with those around you, it sets them free to be vulnerable with you in turn!
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